Elias P.K. Mandala (EM):Welcome Mrs Zulu and Alabi Mitawa. I am Elias Mandala, a research coordinator for Professor Weise, an American scholar working on the labour migration. I will be going through with you on a set of questions that will direct our conversation today. Please feel free to answer or not to answer the questions. Your cooperation will be highly appreciated.
EM:Before I continue with the questions, I would like to seek your consent, to record, and also that Prof. Weise, other academics use this discussion for book, article, and online publications. Do you have any reservation?
All:Not at all. Feel free to do that.
EM:I take this as your consent for us to record and publish where necessary?
EM: Now can you please introduce yourselves.
Margret Alabi Mitawa (MM):I am Margret Alabi Mitawa. I come from the area called Katema, Village headman Mpitirira, T/A Mponda, Mangochi District.
EM:Oh the area is called Katema?
EM:That’s fine. Now Mrs. Zulu is your turn.
Samiyatu Zulu (SZ):I am Samiyatu Zulu. I come from the area of Namkumba, Traditional Authority Namkumba, Mangochi District.
EM:Oh ok. Is Mr. Zulu alive?
EM:Oh! Sorry to hear that. Would you remember the year?
EM:Well, I once again welcome you to this discussion. Feel free to ask, stop me or even not to answer a question you don’t feel like answering. In case you don’t understand any question, please ask me to rephrase it. Now we can start the conversation.
In case you have any documentation or photos please let me have them scanned later after the conversation.
To begin with, I want to know more about your childhood before you met your husbands.
MM:Before I met my husband, Mr. Mitawa, I used to live with my mother and father. They raised me till Mr. Mitawa’s parents spotted me for their son. They approached my parents of their wish.
EM:Oh! Explain to me again. You mean your husband’s parents approached your parents and proposed marriage for their son, Alabi?
MM:Exactly. That was the way marriages happened. Parents would arrange marriages for their children. As children, we had little influence on who to marry us.
EM:What if the child didn’t like the proposed man or woman? Would the wedding go on?
MM:Yes would go on. Normally parents had a good reason for their choices. You had little influence at that moment. They had a good knowledge of the boy’s or the girl’s attitude, behaviours, and abilities at the farms or gardens. So we had to go along with parents’ choices.
EM:So even if the guy doesn’t look liking the girl, must marry her?
MM:It was not like compulsory, the boy had some limited choices. Say if the boy liked the girl and asks parents to go and approach the girl’s family. But if the girl in question decides otherwise, parents of the boy are advised and communicate to the boy of the girl’s decision. The arrangement ends there.
Mmadi:That has been and is still being practiced here. It is the Islamic tradition that parents decide who their children marry.
EM:Is that so? I thought it was a cultural norm of the Yao people. So it is also a religious tradition?
MM:Yes that is how it happens around this region.
EM:Just curious, were there incidences where parents would sell their children to the rich families? Or parents making choices based on the wealth of their counterparts?
MM:Oh, that was not popular. Parents were always cautious of the personality of the particular boy or girl in question before they would agree to expose their children.
EM:Fantastic. But the relationship of parents of both sides remained crucial?
MM:Very crucial. If they were not good friends the relationship would have been very hard to establish especially for their children as well.
EM:So that was your childhood? And where were you living then?
MM:Yes that was part of my childhood. We lived within Katema Area. Born and bred there. People saw us growing. Alabi was on the other side and me on the other until we got married.
MM:Yes. And people used to mock us that I married an older man. Alabi was older than me. So I had no problem with that as we grew up together.
EM:Thank you so much for your story. Now Mrs. Tell us about your own childhood.
SZ:In my case Mr. Zulu was my cousin.
EM:What? Tell me more. What happened?
SZ:Yes he was my uncle’s son. My father and my uncle decided that Mr. Zulu and I should marry to protect each other. So we met and planned to marry. And because I was young, Mr Zulu left uncle’s home and followed me at my father’s house. We were indeed direct cousins.
EM:Oh so this is possible around this region?
SZ:Oh yes it is very possible. And actually many people marry from within their relations
EM:I want to understand, you mean I can marry my uncle’s (my father’s brother) daughter?
SZ:No, you can’t marry each other. My husband was the son of my mother’s brother.
EM:Oh, I see. That is clear enough. So the essence was to make sure you remain in the clan?
SZ:We didn’t want to be lost to another stranger.
EM:Great, but how were you solving marriage disputes?
SZ:Very easy, as our parents were brother and sister so they would solve our differences quietly and without fanfare. It was so simple.
And parents of both sets took us as their real children. They wanted the best for us.
EM:So where were you living after getting married?
SZ:We lived at my home. Mr. Zulu followed me to at my parents (chitengwa).
EM:That is very interesting. Tell me when you were growing up, did you go to school?
SZ:No, I did not attend any school, due to the poverty. There were schools, but only those who had money could afford to send their children to school.
EM:Oh okay. How about Mrs. Alabi did you attend school while growing up in Katema?
MM:No, I did not attend school.
EM:Why did you not attend school?
MM:Mainly because of poverty. Some people were going those who had money then. Others failed to get clothes to wear to go to school. And parents were not interested in sending their children especially women to school.
EM:So apart from poverty what was the other prevailing reason not attending school?
MM:The other factor was that parents favoured boys to attend school as compared to us girls. We were taken as prostitutes hence best send boys to school. Mostly, they pushed us to marriage than compete with boys. They were looking forward to dowry rather than our futures then.
EM:Ok let’s go ahead. In the 1960s, in this region there was some sought of a revolt called “Chikanga.”I am not sure of the word, if anyone would have an idea ir heard the story please enlighten us of what it was like.
MM:Ohm not chikanga but “Chiwawa”. This is in connection with the coming of Kamuzu. Kamuzu had his men, and these men they came with war, violence, intimidation etc. For instance, these men here in Mangochi, they could come and terrorize the village and villagers. If we noticed that Kamuzu men are around, we knew that Chiwawa is here. We had to pick all our belongings outside the house and hide them in the bush. So they had targets. Those whom they thought were agents of the British government. At night would come into those homes and burnt them to ashes. Even if they found an empty house, they would still burn the house and run away. Also they wanted us to wear a green cloth to show them that we are for Malawi Congress. But if you don’t wear anything, we were thought to be traitors, friends of rebel Chipembere and his cronies.
[Chipembere was one of the ministers of the first government of Kamuzu Banda in the early 1960s. Him and few others planned to overthrow Kamuzu Banda regimes for his authoritarian. So Kamuzu hated any person from Mangochi and thought every person from here also rebuilt against him and his policies.]
EM:Wow so that was the case? And what happened when these chiwawa men found you without the green MCP cloth?
MM:They were going to beat you up and take you to Special Branch police without any legal case. They brutalize you without reason.
Mmadi:What really happened was that, they did not agree in Parliament. Chipembere and other ministers and MPs in parliament did not agree with the new policies Kamuzu wanted to be implemented like hospital fee, farming rolls, paying taxes all these members of parliament refused. The leader of these MPs was Chipembere, and his home was here. Hence most of these atrocities were taking place here his home.
EM:Wow! That was really bad especially that you were not involved and some of you didn’t understand what was wrong at all.
MM:Exactly, imagine these men would just come and burn your houses without any explanation or questioning.
EM:So you mean you experienced this?
MM:Oh yes, we did, we could run away from our homes at night when you hear them coming and singing, “Umenewu ndi ufulu” “This is freedom, this is freedom.”
EM:Oh but was that really freedom? And where was Chipembere when these atrocities were happening?
SZ:He was at his home in Malindi
EM:Oh he came from the other side of Mangochi called Malindi?
EM:So why then, did these Malawi Congress party men deal with him directly in Malindi and leave you free?
SZ:When he heard that these men are after his life, he flew to America. And they instead concentrated on violence on innocent people.
EM:Did you also experience these violent activities in person?
SZ:No, but my parents used to tell us.
MM:My uncle was going to another town from Katema to buy food. He met these men on the road. He did not have the green cloth with him. They took him straight to police and made huge allegations against him and they throw him into prison. They took him to Zomba Maximum Prison (Mikuyu). Thereafter took him to Blantyre Chichiri Prison. They kept him for many years as a political prisoner, without trial. They released him when I already had children. While in prison he told us were not given relish but only pap (nsima). So when he came out he could not eat pap with relish instead he used salt as relish. This is how terrible this guy was. He died not eating relish (ndio) with pap.
EM:That was hard really. One’s lifestyle changed completely. Now that you are married with Mr. Alabi Mitawa, when did you hear about his decision to leave for South Africa to work in the mines under WNLA?
MM:One evening he came to me and made a suggestion. My wife, look how are suffering to get the basic needs in our family.
We struggle to get clothes, food, etc. Most of my friends are going to WNLA. I feel I should also go so that we can change our situation. I replied to him, true my husband this is a good idea. Most men have gone there and after some years they come back and really changed their homes. You can also go my husband.
EM:So that is how he left for South Africa?
MM:Yes, and he left me at his family’s home as my mother wanted me to stay there. And by the time he left we had two children.
EM:Oh I see. So how did the parents take that decision of your husband leaving for WNLA?
MM:His parents were not sure whether their son should leave or not. But my mom was okay with the decision. She said look at those men who went away and came back. All their families are now happy. You could also be happy when your man leaves. Then when my mother talked to my husband’s mother, then his parents also agreed that my husband can now leave for South Africa.
EM:Oh I see. Now, Mrs. Zulu tell me how did you come to know of Mr. Zulu’s decision to go to South Africa?
SZ:Actually I was also influential on the decision. I told him look at my friend’s husband is back from WNLA and look how happy they are? Why can’t you also go? He saw the need considering we were growing old, and needed to stop relying on the family resources. We needed to be independent.
EM:Wow! So your friend was instrumental in coming up with the decision for your husband to migrate to South Africa?
SZ:Yes. Imagine I also wanted the blankets from South Africa (Tchale=Checks), zodiac (Gumbagumba) those things were very popular here.
EM:How about your parents did they accept your decision?
SZ:Oh yes! They agreed, they too wanted their children to do well and stop begging.
EM:And did he leave you at your family home?
SZ:Yes yes he left me at my family home as I did not have children by then. I was still young.
EM:So now all parties are in agreement and ready to leave. How was it like? Can you please describe the moment? Mrs. Alabi can you start please?
MM:[laughs] When he decided on the date to leave, he told me in a week’s time, I will be leaving. Then I told him, ok then this week we need to be together and enjoy ourselves as I don’t know when you are coming back. Let us make it a memorable week. So we had really good time to ourselves till he left. And when he left, he was a very happy man as I was a very happy wife.
EM:Wow! That was awesome. You needed that, I guess. What about you Mrs. Zulu?
SZ:The same. It was a moment for us to enjoy ourselves to the fullest as we did not know when he was coming back. We maximized our marriage life in a short period time.
EM:Did you have any child by then?
SZ:No, I was still young we just married.
EM:How about you Mr Alabi?
MM:I had two children when he was leaving us for the first time.
EM:Oh yes, and what did you tell them about their husband living?
MM:I had the duty to inform them and explain to them why he is leaving. And they understood as they were not old to ask many questions. But the only problem was that my husband left me at his family home. So I had problem with his relations. They gave me a horrid time. Fortunately, I loved my husband and reiterated my desire to stay put.
EM:Tell me how was it when you finally saw him leave?
MM:I did not find it difficult as I had faith that he is going to come back and also that he is going there for a really good cause.
EM:What was really your source of your strength?
MM:I think the knowledge of him and that what we had as a family. I knew he was not going to think about anything except for me his wife and children. No matter how long he will come back to us.
EM:Mrs. Zulu what was your source of strength?
SZ:For me I had parents who encouraged me. Also in those days we had strong faith in each other. I knew he will go and come back like other men; hence I should not bring shame to my parents and myself by cheating with other men. So that kept me waiting faithfully for my husband while away. Today is very different, where cheating is fashionable.
EM:A different question now. What was the most worrying and painful thing that you went through when your husband had left?
MM:The question as whether I will be able to survive the tests of loneliness. That was really worrying. There were men who try to test you especially when you have needs. I never wanted to have kids with separate men. I also asked myself if my husband will be faithful to me. Those were the only questions but with God, I managed to remain committed until he came back.
EM:You said that your husband left you and your two children at your husband’s family, how did they treat you?
MM:Yes we started our family right at his family home. But we moved out later. But when he left for the first time, we were still within his family home. Yes they were helping us and at times I would go to my mother to ask for help too.
EM:What about when he left for South Africa? Was the help coming the same way as he was around?
MM: No. actually the help or assistance was reduced somehow as compared to the time my husband was here.
EM:Tell me, were you able to meet other women whose husbands were also at WNLA?
MM:Yes. We used to meet them and chat. Most of the times, these were the women who had their men gone earlier and for several times. They used to advise us to stay strong and faithful otherwise, we will be the biggest losers when our men returned home.
EM:Whenever you met what were your most worries you shared?
MM:Normally we had little worries except for the loneliness I mentioned above. But through those experienced ones we gained courage to stay strong and resolute. We admired how our friends used to enjoy what their men brought them home. Imagine them cycling a bicycle to the market, getting their GumbaGumba (disco music instrument) hired. Though their men were away, they were still making money for them to spend at home. Those were some of the things that gave us strength to remain committed.
EM:Oh that was your support group?
EM:Were you by chance singing some songs when you met?
MM:[laughs] I don’t remember us singing any song.
EM:How about you, Mrs. Zulu? Were you also meeting other women whose husbands had gone to WNLA?
SZ:Yes. They were there. The same we used to encourage each other as well. In those days there beautiful clothes those whose husbands came back home brought such as Miroga (blouse) with lines. Those women looked very beautiful.
EM:Oh ok and those were the blouses?
SZ:Yes. And those made some of us strong and faithful that when our husbands come, we can as well look beautiful.
EM:As for you, during those meetings were you singing any particular songs?
SZ:Oh, I don’t remember us singing any particular song. It is not like these days where girls like music.
EM:This question is for you Mrs. Alabi, at the time your husband was in South Africa there was an incident where by you lost your child.
MM:Yes, I did lose my child while he was away.
EM:Oh sorry. How old was the child?
MM: Since in the past we were not able to attend school, we were not able to count the age of the child
EM:Was the child a first born or second?
EM:Oh okay which means that the husband left you with two children, and the second born died while he was in South Africa?
EM:So how did you cope with the situation on your own?
MM:The child felt sick, for many days, that is when he died. My husband was not aware about the death. He came to know about the death through one of his friends who came back home from South Africa. On his way back to South Africa, he told him.
EM:That must have been hard for you? But how do you think your husband reacted to the news of the death of your child
MM: Whilst he was abroad, he wrote me a letter, I went to receive the letter, he told me that it happens will meet when God decides. That was his response. A typical man’s response.
EM:Okay. This has brought me to another question, you have said that after he received the news about the death of the child he wrote you a letter, which means that despite he was abroad you were still communicating
EM:And he wrote you letters
EM:At that time you did not know how to read, so who was reading for you these letters?
MM:My brother in law would read and write for me the letters
EM:Was he the elder brother or the younger brother of Alabi?
EM:Which means that for you to send a letter you were asking someone to help you?
EM:What kind of letters were you sending him?
MM:These letters were mostly contained with love and words of encouragement. I would tell my in law that sorry but you have to include loving words to my sweetheart and he should bear with me. This is the only way to express my love to your brother. He has to know that am waiting for him
EM:Okay, so you’re in law was really writing that?
MM:Yes, and I was not shy because I wanted my husband to know how I felt about him
EM:Can you mention two or three words that you sent your husband
MM:There were only three words that I remember, the first word was:
I cannot even sleep at night because am missing you
EM:Wow! And your in law would really write all that?
MM:Yes, and I would tell my in law that this is an assurance your brother has to know that am waiting for him
EM:So your husband was replying the same way as you expressed yourself?
MM:He was and his would tell me that he is keeping it for me and he is not meeting with other women. Just keep it clean for me and I will also do the same here
EM:It seems very interesting
MM:Yes it was indeed. This is how important the letter was to us lovebirds
EM:Which means that if you had problems that time from your family or people who were not treating you well. You would get cheered up when you have received the letter
MM:Yes I would forget about all my problems and get glued to the letter
EM:So even you Mrs. Zulu, you were also receiving letters from your husband?
SZ:Yes I was also receiving letters and he would give the letters to his friends who were coming back home. I would give them back my own responses to my husband. That was the only way of communication between us.
EM:So what was your reaction after receiving the letters, since you had no child?
SZ:When I have just received the letter I would feel like my husband is back, I would even sleep with it under my pillow and wouldn’t even tear it
EM:Ok. Which means that letters were powerful tools of communication by that time between you and your husband?
EM:The letters were helping with keeping marriages, bearing with problems.
All:Yes, unlike this generation we were waiting for our husbands to come, in short we were loyal, and we would be so happy when we have received the letters. They had strange energy.
EM:Now let’s move to financial circumstances, what can you tell me about the money between you and your husband’s whilst he was still abroad, was he sending you money?
MM:Yes he would send money through his friends who were coming to Malawi. I would receive the money and count it. Then the person would tell us the exact date when he is expected to leave so that we would appreciate through the letters
EM:Do you mean your husband would send you letter/money whenever he got a chance of a friend coming back home?
MM:Yes and we would also do the same. We would also give the same person who came back home
EM:So he was only sending money or something else?
EM:Can you remember the amount he would send to you?
MM:No, I did not know how to count either.
MM:Yes since its long time ago
EM:So the money he was sending, what did he say it was for?
MM:So mostly he would instruct me that, take such amount of money and give it to your mother in law, because if she heard that you have received money and you did not share with her it will be another issue, there will be disagreements between you and her and give the other money to your mother. So I would really do that and I would also share some to my brother-in-law who was reading for me the letters
EM:Oh okay good. The money that you received from your husband, can you tell us if there is something that you bought using the money he sent you that you can remember
MM:Yes, this other time when he sent me the money I used it to buy a farm, and until now I am still using that farm, even my husband when he came I told him that I used that money to buy a farm and we went to see the farm together and he was also happy because that was wise
EM:How about you, can you remember what you did with the money your husband sent you?
SZ:Yes, me too. I would receive the money and share it with my mother-in-law. I didn’t think of buying a farm at that time since I had no child, and I was very young wouldn’t think of it
EM:And at that time, parents were given money, which was sent by your husband, can you tells us if you remember anything on how they spent the money
SZ:Mostly they used to buy food stuff for the home and the remaining they bought goats. They really helped them and they still have them up to date
EM:Oh okay. How about your own family?
SZ:As for my parents they used the money to send my younger brother to school
EM:Wow! This is very good. Where is your brother now?
SZ:He is now in South Africa
EM:So he resides there now
EM:So is he there with his family
SZ:No his family is here in Malawi
EM:What is he doing there? Is he working in the mine like Mr Zulu?
SZ:He is working there. And he supports his family and ours too. He recognises the favour he received from my husband
EM:That’s honourable. I wished most people are grateful to those who uplifted them.
Mrs. Mitawa, there was a time that Mr Maitwa mentioned that when he went to WNLA for the third time, with his money he used it to build a family house. What do you remember about this?
MM:Yes, when he went for the third time, he said my wife let’s build a house away from his parent’s home. This is where we live in now
EM:Do you think all of this would have been possible without WNLA contracts?
MM:No, not possible at all. We had no better alternative or options to alleviate our poverty
EM:How about you can you remember, how the money was from WNLA helped your family?
SZ:As I said earlier, the money was used for my brother as a school fees, and now he is South Africa
EM:Oh, yes he is also in South Africa. And is the one who is also helping you?
SZ:Yes, and he has been helping us a lot and he has built our parents a house. This is very commendable job and because my husband went to WNLA and TEBA to assist alleviate our poverty
EM:This is very interesting, we have moved from south Africa, now let’s come back to Malawi. After working there for two years, and they have decided to come back to Malawi,, I would really like to know about the first time coming here and you were not aware that your husband was coming. How was it like? What was your reaction?
MM:First time when he was coming he found me in the house, and I just heard people saying that he is back so I was surprised and then I saw him and I was so happy to welcome him, and he was so happy too. I can’t explain the sigh of relief that was in my heart. You know for him to come alive was by God’s grace.
EM:How about you, what was your reaction when your husband was back from his first journey?
SZ:When he was back I just saw him coming since he never said he was coming and I was also very happy. He was also excited that he found me at home
EM:So after welcoming him back home, did you have any stress that if he was going back or he was back for good?
SZ:No I didn’t have any stress; I knew that if he was back, hence anytime soon he was going back
EM:Or did you think that since he was back your problems were solved?
MM:In my case no. I dint think of any of that because we were both dependent on each other. And because a lot of people were trying to break us but it did not happen because we were so strong together. He even told me that he was leaving on a particular date and I should not tell anyone. Hence he left without knowledge of his family. Some knew he has gone back after he had arrived back in South Africa
EM:Tell me since you knew that he was planning to go back to WNLA in South Africa, did you have any stress that he was going to stay there for another two years?
MM:Not at all. I was not and when he was going back I was pregnant when he was leaving so I was not worried I knew he will come back for me
EM:Mrs Alabi, when your husband came for the first time, according to the stories he was telling you, what are some of the activities that he liked doing when he was there?
MM:He would tell me that he was really working hard there and the payment was just okay and if he had access to send money every day he would be sending
EM:Does that mean heavy duties?
MM:Yes. They would work day and night; it didn’t require a lazy person
EM:Going to the last part. By the time your husband was in South Africa either, the first time he came back home, or for the third time, did you hear any bad stories that was done towards men who went to South Africa to work in the mines?
MM:Yes we would hear that it was a tough job, as well as hard, and even through the letters he would tell us that some had passed away and we should always wish them well as well as staying well with the people in the villages that he can have peace
EM:When you heard such things what was your reaction?
MM:I would get sad but I wouldn’t tell anyone and always prayed for him.
EM:Mrs Zulu if you remember very well around 1974 Kamuzu Banda had abandoned Malawians from going to mines (WNLA) in South Africa due to aeroplane crush, how did you feel?
SZ:I did not like it since our families were depending on those men who went to the mines and we were happy that our families were working. Most men did not find jobs to sustain their families locally
EM:Mrs Alabi, how did you receive it when you heard about the closure of WNLA?
MM:I was very sad, to the extent that I got sick because I was happy that my husband was working because we had nothing to provide for the kids
EM:Back to you again Mrs Zulu, how did you cope up with the closure of TEBA around 1989?
SZ:I was very disappointed, because we had plans of building a house so we failed to achieve our goals.
EM:So should I conclude that both WNLA and TEBA contracts had a huge impact in the lives of poor Malawians?
All:Yes, it reduced poverty, since we were able to buy our needs, built houses, sent our children to school. With these closures, it was really hard to take
EM:Very interesting indeed. So do you have anything that you can say about WNLA that can have an impact on this project?
MM:WNLA to say the list taught our men how to remain independent as head of the family. Men took responsibilities of their wives, children, families etc. So this contract brought something very positive about Malawians that they are hard workers
SZ:My husband travelled abroad to work and became the bread winner for the whole family on both sides.
EM:Thank you all. Is there anything else you have in mind before we close?
MM:No, I don’t have much to say, but am happy that we’ve met. And I think you are the one to wish us well.
EM:Thank you so much, and I am glad that, you decided to showup here, and you have given us the right information. Again remember all what we have shared here is recorded, and will be used for academic purposes. Your consent is crucial for its accessibility to others. On behalf of Professor Weise, I want to thank you all.
Mmadi:Before you close the discussion, I want to repeat the request I made on behalf of the children of the ex-miners. They feel left out. Would you consider them please with an open or group discussion like this one. I think it can also inform and impact this project.
EM:Thank you again Mr Mmadi. You have been a good servant for this project. I will take your request up with Professor Weise. However, this will depend on the availability of funds. Thank you for your services. Thank you so much.
