I went to Zimbabwe in 1953. I am Yao and a Muslim.
ZG:Where did you go when you first went to Zimbabwe?
Ibrahim:I went to a place called Hartley. It is between Gatooma and Harare.
ZG:What were your intentions?
Ibrahim:Initially I wanted to go to South Africa. The problem was at that time there was some kind of political upheaval resulting in them closing the borders to South Africa. That’s why I ended up in Zimbabwe.
ZG:What type of work did you do there?
Ibrahim:I didn’t have a particular job in mind when I went; I was just looking for something to come up. The first job I had was at David Whitehead a textile company. There used to be one here in Malawi as well. While I was working there we were told that all those who had passports should transfer to Zambia, but I refused because I still wanted to go to South Africa. That is when I quit working for David Whitehead. I resigned.
ZG:What job did you have next?
Ibrahim:After that I went to work at Gent Mine(?), but it was within the same district.
ZG:How did you travel when you went to Zimbabwe?
Ibrahim:When I was going to Zimbabwe I went from Dedza to Blantyre and then I boarded the train that went through Mozambique. It cost me £1 66 shillings.
LP:When you were going did you have to get registered anywhere?
Ibrahim:No we just used to go.
ZG:Did you know any other people when you arrived in Zimbabwe?
Ibrahim:I just went there of my own free will. At first I used to sleep at the station. In the mornings I would go and look for a job. I didn’t have any relatives there.
ZG:Who did you work with?
Ibrahim:I used to work with white people [azungu]. There was one person from Mozambique. There were also some Malawians and some Zimbabweans.
ZG:What was your accommodation like when you found some?
Ibrahim:We were given houses with our jobs. We lived in company housing. Some of the people were given houses but others had to look for their own accommodation. At the Gent Mines we were also given accommodation.
ZG:How was the accommodation?
Ibrahim:The houses were made of thatch. Sometimes we were given houses and sometimes we were given a number of days to go and build the house ourselves. You were given about four days to go and have a house built. It was like a punishment. Four days was not enough to build a proper house. You would end up having to finish the building after you had knocked off form work.
ZG:What were your first impressions of Zimbabwe?
Ibrahim:When I first arrived there was nothing there that really amazed me. At that time there was a lot of segregation [tsankho]. Malawians were not really wanted there. There was a real segregation between the Shona and Malawians. There was hatred between Shona and Malawians. The only people who used to really like us were the azungu because they thought we were a very hard working people.
ZG:Were you single or married when you went to Zimbabwe?
Ibrahim:No I left before I was married. I married in Zimbabwe and I had 12 children. 8 of them are still in Zimbabwe. I only had one wife and I had all of my children with her. Her parents were born in Zimbabwe and she was also born in Zimbabwe. Her great grandparents were actually from Kasungu.
ZG:Was it easy for you to migrate to Zimbabwe?
Ibrahim:In order for you to get a job you did need some kind of identification. Malawians were never allowed to look for jobs within town. They were told to look for jobs 10 miles outside of town and stay there. It was only if you were approached by a white person and he was happy with the way you were working, then that person would take you to the District Commissioner. He would organise for you to be given identification so that you could become like a citizen of the country. The reason for the 10 mile thing was that in 1963 in Malawi they were heading towards independence. They were worried that if we were allowed to enter the towns we would give people the same ideas and people would begin to push for the same things they were in Malawi. The best thing that could happen to you was for that white person to be impressed with the way that you were working and then it would be easy for you to work within the town. The white person would go there and say this is my boy from Malawi and I want him to work here in town and that was the way it would go.
ZG:Were you ever involved in Zimbabwean politics?
Ibrahim:I was never really involved in politics. I went there just for work. But sometimes when there were tensions they would beat you up because you were Malawian, but other than that we were not involved. If you told the white people that you were from Malawi they would protect you as long as you were living well with them.
ZG:Did you ever take any interest in Malawian politics?
Ibrahim:When I went to Zimbabwe I stayed there for about 15 years. It was very difficult for you to come back to Malawi with the government that was here at that time. When we were coming in you would have to go through the DCs office. First and they would ask you to give the names of those who had run away seeking political asylum form Malawi. Sometimes you would be taken to the police station and questioned about Mphakati and other opponents of Banda. When you got to the Malawian border they would tell you before you go to your home village you have to report to the police station. Then they would call the station and tell them that you were on your way. If you then went straight to your home village they would report you and then you could be arrested. That was the extent of my involvement in Malawian politics.
ZG:Did you used to hear any news about the MCP when you were in Zimbabwe?
Ibrahim:We used to listen to the news everyday on the radio. I used to like listening to the Malawian radio station so I could know what was happening here. I have never joined any political party though. When I was leaving Malawi I was still young.
ZG:How did you meet your wife?
Ibrahim:The time I met her she was at school. After she finished school she wanted to become a nun. She was at a mission in Harare. Her father was from Zambia and I used to run some errands for him. Malawians and Zambians get along very well. Zambians and Malawians are like cousins of some sort. The Senga from Zambia and the Yao from Malawi. So when we met in Zimbabwe we would end up being good friends and get along very well. I met her because I started chatting with her father. And by the will of God she failed to become a nun. And then she actually converted to Islam.
LP:So did you bring her back with you when you were coming form Zimbabwe?
Ibrahim:Yes. She is at home.
ZG:Where did you live after you got married?
Ibrahim:I only stayed at the thatched house for one year and then I moved to Harare. I moved to the location.
ZG:Who else used to live in the location?
Ibrahim:There were Yaos, Shona, Ndebeles and many other people, there were Senga and Sena.
ZG:Were you happy living in Zimbabwe?
Ibrahim:Life there was very good. “Wabwino koposa”. Especially when there were so many whites there. And even when the ones who were ruling Zimbabwe were white, everything was good. Things in Zimbabwe started to get bad in 1988. That is when things started getting expensive; prices would be going up everyday. That is why I decided to come back home and buy a plot of land at the airfield. I built a house and that is where I am living at present.
ZG:How did you used to spend your free time in Harare?
Ibrahim:At weekends because they have so many dams there, the dams were full of fish, so I used to take my fishing gear and go with my wife to fish. After we came from fishing we would go for prayers. Sometimes I didn’t go fishing. I used to have my own sewing machines and tailors, so I would be tied up with my business. I used to sew uniforms and deliver them to different schools.
ZG:Were you a member of any work associations?
Ibrahim:The work associations were there at the companies where I used to work. We came up with the group so that we could help our friends. Maybe if someone was fired then we would be able to represent that friend. We used to call it a Workers Committee.
LP:In what ways did these committees used to help?
Ibrahim:It helped because sometimes people were fired unlawfully. We decided it would be wise to have some kind of representation. I was one of the leaders of these groups. We negotiated that if somebody was to be fired they should first be given four warnings, severe warning and then final warning. Before the warnings came out they would fire you just like that. One small mistake could lead to you being fired. People were fired for instance if they didn’t greet the boss. So that is when we decided to come up with the group and go to the government to ask for permission. After that it was very difficult for someone to be fired. Only those who went to work drunk could be fired that same day, or thieves, those who stole company property. That rule is there until the present day.
ZG:Is there anything else you remember about daily life in Harare?
Ibrahim:I used to like the lifestyle there. There was no one who was very poor. We were used to feeling sorry for each other, even if you went to a restaurant and found that there was someone who couldn’t buy any food you would buy food for that person. Sometimes I used to go window shopping with my wife. Sometimes we used to go the park and sit around, buying drinks. Life there was Western/European. “Moyo wachizungu”. Even in terms of food you were not restricted to eating the same food everyday. You could even have tea with chicken! Yeah, we only used to eat bread at the workplace. Nsima was not something big. You would only eat it maybe once a day, perhaps in the evening.
ZG:What languages did you speak in Harare?
Ibrahim:I used to communicate in Shona. Even at my house here in Dedza most of the time we speak in Shona. I could also speak Ndebele. If I met a Shona I spoke Shona if I met a Ndebele I spoke Ndebele. If I met Makolekole, I would speak their language as well. Also Manyika and Makalanga.
ZG:Do you remember there being any cultural associations in Harare?
Ibrahim:There were many groups, some still there to the present day.
LP:Did you used to take part in any?
Ibrahim:I used to go and watch. There was the Gule Wamkulu, Beni [predominantly practiced by Yao and Mang’nyanja and Chewa], Chintali [Chewa dance], Mganda [Chewa dance], Malipenga [Tonga].
ZG:Who used to participate in these groups?
Ibrahim:Malawians, in different groups though [tribes]. In Zimbabwe there are many Malawians, approximately four million. And of these most of them don’t want to come back to Malawi. Malawians even have their own villages there. It is mostly those who have their own villages there that like to perform these dances.
ZG:How about burial societies?
Ibrahim:We used to have burial societies. When a Malawian passed away we would come together and discuss how we would organise things. We used to go and buy the coffin, food and a cloth, and anything else that was needed for the funeral. We would have some kind of a chief. These societies we organised according to where you came from and in a group of about fifteen people we would choose a chief. Tambala, Kachindamoto, many many… If there were very few people from your home district you could come together with another group to make it bigger. They were not just for when people died. They would be used for when people were sick as well.
ZG:Do you remember anything about popular music in Harare? Did they play any Malawian music?
Ibrahim:I used to like listening to Shona music. There are so many bands in Zimbabwe. Sometimes they would come to play in halls and we would have to pay at the door to go, just like here.
ZG:Where were these concerts held?
Ibrahim:Anyone could go and watch the bands would play in halls.
ZG:Did you have any interest in sports?
Ibrahim:Yes I used to like the ‘tug of war’. Our company used to employ me as a paramedic. I used to go to accident scenes and help dig people out if they were trapped in mines. I belonged to the safety council. They taught me all sorts of things and went to lots of training sessions. I used to really enjoy it. Sometimes we would even go as far as Zambia to do this work. We used to have compressors and oxygen and start digging.
ZG:Did you ever go to the cinema?
Ibrahim:Yes, we used to watch Jackie Chan. We used to really like it; the whole family would go to the cinema.
ZG:Did you know anyone who was involved with traditional religion?
Ibrahim:The traditional churches were there but Malawians were not involved with them it was the people of Zimbabwe, the ‘chikunda’. It was Malawians who actually taught them about Christianity and Islam. There was a lot of traditional religion in Zimbabwe. Even today some people from Zimbabwe only want to pray to spirits, they are not interested in other religions. They pray to sprits and after wards they pray to God. In their religions they put spirits first. Even if there is a drought, they would go to the mountains and offer things like beer to the spirits. The people involved in this religion don’t even bath, they only bath once a year. The Shona like this religion, but not so much with the Ndebeles.
Ibrahim:There is a lot of witchcraft there. The Shona are highly dependent upon witchdoctors. Even if a person dies they still don’t believe that there is God. If a Shona person tells you that you will not see the light of tomorrow, it is very true you are going to die. If you are in a car and there is someone that practices this religion, carrying traditional medicines then the car cannot move.
LP:Was it just the Shona involved in this witchcraft?
Ibrahim:Yes. No Malawians were involved.
ZG:How did you feel as a Malawian living in Zimbabwe? Did it feel like home?
Ibrahim:It felt like home for me. I lived there for most of my life so it felt like home. Most of my life experiences started there. I learnt about the world in Zimbabwe, so it was like home. I left Malawi when I was still young.
ZG:Did you feel like there were any differences between Malawians and Zimbabweans?
Ibrahim:Zimbabweans used to insult us from time to time. They would call us ‘Mablantyre’ that is why I never married someone from Zimbabwe. Even if you live in the villages they would make sure that you do the donkey work. If you were involved in a funeral you would be the one to dig the grave. They used to pretend that it was some form of respect, but in actual fact they treated us like this because we were not from there.
ZG:Did you see any changes in this as time went by?
Ibrahim:No. Even in the present day they still do this. Until now.
ZG:Did your children go to school there?
Ibrahim:All of my children were educated there. Some of them even have degrees. Some of my children are still there.
ZG:Did any of your children come back to Malawi?
Ibrahim:I came back with the four younger ones. They completed their education here. One works within Dedza town. One works with the police in Rumphi. The younger ones; one of them is in form two and the other form one. Of all of the other ones who stayed in Zimbabwe only two of them have visited here, the others have never been to Malawi.
ZG:How did you feel about returning to Malawi?
Ibrahim:When I was coming back I was happy. But the time I came back after I had stayed in Zimbabwe for 15 years I didn’t like it because I felt like I was coming to the bush. When I came that time I used to go to Blantyre, book a room and stay there until I returned, waiting for the plane to take me back to Zimbabwe. I would spend all of my time in Blantyre. If I went to my village I only spent about three to four days there. After that I used to come back every 5 years. That is when I started getting used to the lifestyle in Malawi. In 1995 when I started thinking about coming back to Malawi permanently I went to the DC’s office to ask about buying a plot of land because I knew that I would never manage living in the village. I bought the land while I was still in Zimbabwe and had the house built before I came back. When I was coming back I wasn’t worried about where I was going to live anymore because I had a house within town. When I got here I found a job at the Islamic Centre along the M1 road. I work as a receptionist there. I welcome all of the people who come to our office. Every morning I go from my house to work. I feel like I am really home now, I am happy. I only go to my village because I have a maize garden there.
ZG:Is there anything else you can share with us about Zimbabwe?
Ibrahim:At first Mugabe was a good person. He cheated us because most Zimbabweans wanted Nkhomo but they ended up following Mugabe. When he became leader in 1980 he started telling us that this is the time for freedom. Sometimes he would lie to us and tell us this is the year of change. After a while we realised we had never seen the changes he had promised us. After ten years he became a very cruel leader. So many people were beaten up and so many bad things have happened. There wasn’t any freedom and we used to remember the rule of the whites. I wasn’t surprised with what Mugabe did because the people that I worked for had always predicted that this was going to happen in the future. There was a Mr. Brown and a Mr. White and they always told us this. What they used to tell me is what is happening in Zimbabwe today.
LP:How about Malawian politics are they any parallels to be drawn?
Ibrahim:No. It was different. Kamuzu was better. Kamuzu never used to have his opponents killed, but Mugabe does. Sometimes they hang people on trees and people find their relatives hanging on trees.
LP:Would you go back if you had the chance?
Ibrahim:No when I go to Zimbabwe now I only stay there for seven days and then I come back. There is no food there you can’t find food.
LP:How are your children surviving there?
Ibrahim:Because they are working they know how to survive. That is why I only stay there for 7 days because I know that if I stay longer I give my children a hard time finding food for me. Life is better here now.
ZG:Was your wife happy to come and live in Malawi?
Ibrahim:Yes she was happy, vary happy. Even when we lived in Zimbabwe I used to send her here to come and see my parents, bringing things with her from Zimbabwe. She also got used to life here. Even the garden we have in the village, she is the one who organises people to work in the maize garden.
ZG:Did she leave any family behind in Zimbabwe?
Ibrahim:As of now none of her relations are in Zimbabwe. Her mother died. After they [her parents] told me that they were from Kasungu I organised a place for them to live here in Malawi, but they were not here for very long before they passed away.
LP:Did she have any brothers or sisters there in Zimbabwe?
Ibrahim:She had other relations, but all of them came to live in Malawi except for her younger sister. One sister lives in Lilongwe with her husband.
ZG:Do you have any contact with any of the Malawians you used to know in Zimbabwe?
Ibrahim:Yes we call each other.
LP:Did they have similar ideas to you when you returned to settle in Malawi?
Ibrahim:My friends thought I was mad when I told them I was coming back to live in Malawi they used to laugh at me and say I was mad. They used to ask me why I was leaving such a nice country to come back to live in Malawi. But as of now they actually wish that they had done the same. When I go back to Zimbabwe I look like the “bwana” now!
